Brick-Mortar-Cloud Podcast
Season 2 Episode 7:
My Boss Hired Me as a Part-Timer. 12 Years Later, We Co-Own 7 Cafes Together

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A lot of people

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just always assume that we were doing so well.

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But if you see a queue,

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doesn’t always mean that

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you’re earning

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lot.

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Especially in F&B.

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course, manpower is so high,

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food cost is so high,

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rent is also pretty high.

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Welcome to the Brick Mortar Cloud podcast. Where we share scaling stories of food and beverage and retail entrepreneurs. I’m Jansen, co-founder of StaffAny, and this series is brought to you by StaffAny and produced by Nila Studios. Today, we have Daphne and Shirlynn together with us on the show.

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Welcome Daphne and Shirlynn.

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Thank you! Hello.

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Maybe Daphne can do a quick introduction of yourself first?

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My name is Daphne and we run, a group of cafes in Singapore. So ATLAS Coffeehouse being, one of them, we have been running the business for close to 12 years now. Yeah. So, I mean, with our latest project at Jalan Besar, Moonchild.

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So that has been, quite a quite a quite a good run so far.

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Super smooth. My favorite one is the latest one, Moonchild. The Pork Dan Dan Mian. Good stuff.. Shirlynn, you can do a quick introduction of yourself?

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I’m. I’m Shirlynn. I am Daphne’s

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Business partner. I am the one who thought of the Dan Dan noodles.

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Yeah, because I have this on

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with us.

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I love food. We love food.

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Nicely. Try it.

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Yeah.

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Inspired dishes. Yeah. Natural one. Correct? Yeah.

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As a Singaporean, I. I want to go to a cafe that has something that’s slightly local as well. Yeah. So that’s my inspiration and I think yeah, that it comes through the menu as well.

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Speaker:
Yeah. So I see that all the concepts have variation of something out of space or planet or like a journey and something like that. What’s the inspiration behind all these names, and do you guys have made a name to call this whole or, like constellation on brands or something like that? Is there like a,

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I mean, I wish there was like super nice story, honestly.

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But I mean, every with every opening, you know, it’s really if the opportunity comes, they will take it. So I think because the the first shop is actually Assembly at Evans Road, so Assembly is nothing and has got nothing to do with like any constellations or anything like that. But, when we opened ATLAS. That’s where Shirlynn joined us. ATLAS being the first name.

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Speaker:
So eventually when we started expanding, then we, we figured that, you know, like, it needed to be related somehow because I guess, you know, with our style of expansion, every name is unique, and, you know, so what other way to sort of let people know that we are somehow from the same group. But we do want to actively, you know, promote that we are we are the same group.

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So I guess, you know, the the other way is to sort of just let people guess, okay, ATLAS? Luna? Columbus? Are they kinda like the same? Yeah. So I think that just kind of stuck throughout the years. Yeah. It was a lot of fun to actually dining and having coffee. Yeah. Realizing it is the same. So yeah. Yeah. How do you guys, meet and how did the partnership, in terms of the business partners

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formed?

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On the first shop, it was Lionel. Lionel and I and my mom. So, we were there at the first shop for about three years. So when the master lease ended, they know, we decided that. Okay, I think, you know, because it’s is Evans Road, it’s really quite secluded. So, we then had to, decide whether or not to continue F&B because at the point time is like, okay, if we done with F&B, then, you know, if I will venture something else.

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But I think, for Lionel and I think we really find ourselves resonating with the whole, the whole the whole lifestyle. So then we decided, okay, you know what? Let’s just let’s just let’s just continue to do this. So we went on to look for another,

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space. So then when we found Atlas and, and Shirlynn was

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a gem, like.

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Yeah. So there we go. So then we offered to Shirlynn if she wanted to join us. And so, yeah, I think you can. Yeah. For context, I was her part timer, so she was my boss. Yeah. And I worked for her for two months before I went on to a full time job. But then I would have her on the weekends.

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Yeah. So I think just being, with her and the team for about a year, like, like working on the weekends, we had a nice bond. Yeah, we clicked in a in a sense, yeah. And I think, I was always a bit like kaypoh. I always want to, like, chop, chop and be, like, ask a lot of questions. Yeah.

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And I think because of that, then, I guess it was I gave some I honestly, I don’t know, I honestly, why ah?

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I thought I was a gem? I don’t know, you know. Yeah.

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No, I think you were just very genuine, you know, like like it wasn’t like

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Speaker:
you were just very genuine with it, with the questions that you ask, you know, how about we try these?

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Speaker:
Oh, yeah. Maybe we should. Yeah. Good idea. You know, many times I find myself always giving instructions. So then when someone along the way, you know, comes on. Come on in. Hey, how about, you know, we we try some other thing. You know, I think and must execute also this action wisely, I must execute. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker:
like after hours just doing stuff together and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. And the thing is, she didn’t mind. You get what I mean? Like, she, she look like she genuinely enjoyed the process. And I think that’s very hard to find honestly. Yeah. So we would have, you know business. Yeah. Passion for the people in coffee culture as a whole.

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Speaker:
Right. Yeah. But how do you convince your parents that, you know, hey, we don’t have to do full time work you know You want to do cafe. And then these people is always like 90% of F&B close down in the first year. How do you convince your family and and friends that that this was the path? So for me, I juggled like two jobs for about two years, I think.

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Speaker:
Yeah, about two years. So, at 7:00 I will go to the cafe and then at nine, plus I will go to work and then at 7 p.m. I’ll come back. And then we would like do the closing and stuff the on weekends, the full day I’ll just be at work. Yeah. So we did that for two years.

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Speaker:
Yeah. Two years. But to convince my parents, I mean, it was a good opportunity. Yeah. And I think my dad and mum, although they were a bit hesitant to start. Yeah, they were still like okay, like me it’s it’s your hard work and if anything happens you just have to work harder. Yeah. So I think that was that was why it was okay.

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Speaker:
And you know just slog it out. So it was two years of juggling both jobs. And after that full time. Yeah. Super. What’s the vision for the brand moving forward. Are you guys looking to expand more concepts in more coffee side of things or moving to like the more wine bar kind of space or more repeated brands? Or because I see that all brands are not repeated, I mean, independently, managed and run in the way my menus are different.

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Speaker:
The vibes and space are different. What’s the direction for you guys?

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Speaker:
probably concentrate in building, like a scalable brand. So instead of, developing like a full, you know, in that, moonchild tool, for example, you know, it’s probably going to be maybe, like, more coffee centric more bakery centric kind of style, so that at least, you know, I think because we started roasting our coffee ourselves and baking our own breads, you know, there and I think in that way we can kind of control that cost a little bit more.

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Speaker:
Yeah. So I think moving forward, that’s the only way to sort of, you know, combat all the rising costs and stuff like. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So we talked about people, scaling operations that way. It’s not just about rising costs, right. It’s it’s all about quality control. Yeah. Right. And, shared experience. Yeah. So I do believe that that problem solving some workflows.

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Speaker:
Yes. Yeah. I think for us it’s so because when we have like so many stores and then like the menu is different as well, the offerings are different. Yeah. It’s really, really quite hard to control the quality. Yeah. Yeah. You think you can but you honestly it’s it’s really a struggle. Yeah. So doing something that’s a bit more scalable, although it’s not something that we thought we would want to do.

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Speaker:
Yeah, yeah. Last time we’ll always be like oh must be different. Yeah yeah yeah. But then years later we’re like, well

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Speaker:
we need to if you need to scale. Yeah. Some things to make certain things aligned. Yeah. Yes. I feel like, you know, as we grow, I feel like when we were much younger in the business, it’s easier to expand somehow.

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Speaker:
And right now, over the years. Yeah, it’s getting harder to grow the business because we have we feel like we have so much to lose you know. Yeah. But last time we just said okay I’ll punch up okay. Let’s just open one more. Yeah. One more and the next thing you know I just like okay. So now what, you know we, we.

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Speaker:
Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker:
Right. So with your business, that is very different from other chains. We had other, you know, I’m sure that now operating it on and on, as I’ve seen. Right. Is your business model then different? You know, how do you guys think about the business model or the strategy piece? That is different from just operations on a day to day?

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Speaker:
Is everything, like, very different? You know, like, for example, the online concept versus a bakery concept. And so then I’ll let’s I know there is a lot more footfall dependent, right. Like, CBD. Yeah. Pick up. Yeah. Yeah. Some, like sit down and. Yeah. Read a book so very very different. Like how, how how then your business strategy or this model change, tries to evolve towards

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Speaker:
I think for us, like we try to understand the demographic.

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Speaker:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That’s like a super important thing. Also that means like, I know we need to, like, stick it out, you know, like, you know, like like check out, like see what’s around, see what does. Well, or I know that we will launch the first like couple of months expecting to have to change a lot. Right. Yeah.

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Speaker:
So we need to like be on the ground and listen. And I think that was.

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Speaker:
way that we do it I think because I think the, the advantage of having different names is also,

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Speaker:
it worked well enough. And it’s because we will then be able to be flexible with our offerings.

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Speaker:
You know, it’s not like a will, McDonald’s book here kind of question, you know, is that okay? What will work here? I think maybe a bakery or maybe something that, the menu needs a little bit more Asian touch. You know, it cannot be like a full, American diner kind of style, you know? So I think with that flexibility, it kind, we we have that control.

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Speaker:
Yeah. And so I think business model, we, we, I think that’s, that’s that’s the difference. Yeah.

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Speaker:
big learning because I found myself like I it’s always about iteration is always about understanding what the market requires. Yeah. And being that nimbleness ability to be nimble. Right. Like, on the ground in, like, the Johnson change brand concepts to what the demographic needs.

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Speaker:
Yeah. Is Australian dollar weakness? Yeah, yeah. And that’s amazing, right. Because I think if you consider that I only have about I only have one kind of concept I guess like. Yeah. And I can do that for, for different. Yeah. So so that’s really cool. So you guys are operating that excellence. Moving to like challenges. Right. That’s definitely in the last 12 years.

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Speaker:
UPS and downs and and difficulties. You guys went through one of the one of your most biggest challenge you had to overcome. And was that learning that you can share some of is in this

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Speaker:
as a business, I think the biggest challenge was to close Luna action to me.

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Speaker:
I mean, Luna was our second, second store, right?

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Speaker:
And we chose the CBD and it was because we wanted, you know, like, the coffee to, to be more, to be high volume and stuff like that. So, like, the offering is completely different. But having to close that, it was, it was necessary because that was during Covid. So after Covid, you know, when everything sort of just people just didn’t go to the CBD anymore, then we kind of had to make the decision.

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Speaker:
And I think, we were offered, basically double RNA and double on space. So then it’s it’s just a it’s a no brainer. We definitely have to move out. So I think maybe we had to close that but still keep the same amount of staffing. That was hard because then how do you explain to the people. Right.

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Speaker:
Sorry that my shop closed. So you kind of sorry get to be trans, you know, like we find it very hard. So we still kept that kind of staffing and that obviously then affected how up, you know, like the end of year. But that was what we were ready for. Yeah. At the same time, how do you also explain that sacrifice that you make, you know, add to your staff and expect them to understand, you know, so I think that that is really quite that was a quite a challenge.

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Speaker:
Yeah. And yeah, I think a lot of people just always assume that we were doing so well. But if you see a queue, it I mean doesn’t always mean that like you are like, yeah, yeah, you’re earning a lot. You get me? Especially in F&B. Yeah. Of course, manpower is so high, food cost is so high, rent is also pretty high.

00:12:46:09 – 00:13:05:19
Speaker:
Yeah. So I think when we when Luna close there was at least like 6 or 7 months where we were like in limbo. Yeah. Because we weren’t sure like which unit like you know what. What should we do. Ya what style. And then that’s when we found… Do we open another Luna? Yeah. Correct. You know. Or do we, we come up with a new brand.

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Speaker:
Yeah. And you know with finding a new space. You you never know when the next opportunity is going to come. Right. So but thankfully you know then we found then we found that Jalan Besar. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So on hindsight you know rental agreements will always have expiry and have a plus. Yes. With that expiry people might increase. Yeah. More commonly then.

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Speaker:
But now. Yeah. What is this learning that you guys have that because of this experience in Luna, you will do differently.

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Speaker:
Actually, I think we can’t say much because it’s not really in our control. Right? I mean if I’m the landlord, sure lah. But the thing is, it’s really not. So I guess my advice is really just to make sure you always have an option to renew.

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Speaker:
I mean, you, right. So ensure you either have the option to renew. Yeah. In black and white. Yeah. Right. And if not then plan for the worse right. Yes. Yes. Guys we have six months on lease. Yeah. Hey guys, three more months. Yeah. Guarantee. So yeah. Plan for the worst. Yeah I think it’s like to not be too emotionally tied down to the brand.

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Speaker:
Yeah. Yeah. That is something that’s like really important because

00:14:06:23 – 00:14:16:15
Speaker:
all the, all the shops are like, you know, like a baby to us. Right. But then if we think of it like, so emotionally like, oh in their mind we just try to renew but then like kena whack like the crazy rent. Right.

00:14:16:17 – 00:14:40:11
Speaker:
Then that will make sense. Yeah. So as, as founders and owners of of the business. Yeah. I think an important thing is to really like at times we have to think about our brain. Okay. And not so much is like, remind yourself to not be so attached. Right. Yeah. And I think like Luna, it was not easy. Also, you know, I mean, like I think we like we were debating for so long ya like, you know, okay can we nego like let’s like I think like definitely do it like back and forth with them.

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Speaker:
Yeah. But in the end it was like, okay, I think we just need to we just cut and make that call. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, like, you know, we got Moonchild. And if not for that, like, we probably wouldn’t have Moonchild. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. So that’s a blessing in disguise in some sense of going through that difficulty and all opening new concept.

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Speaker:
Yeah yeah yeah. So think faster like. Yeah, yeah I mean you have to you cannot be too sad about it and like wallow. You just need to like okay. Nevermind. This didn’t work out. We move on, we try again. Yeah, right. How about, recent win, successful, you know, budget campaign, concept building. I think recently it we set up our roastery, so we, roasting ourselves.

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Speaker:
We have a whole roasting facility. And I think that has always been a dream of mine. Yeah. From the from the very beginning. So I think to see that, you know, coming to fruition, I think is really quite sweet. The first time I met Daphne. like, you know, from, like, staff interview kind and she’s like, oh, you know, like, what do you do, blah, blah, blah.

00:15:40:12 – 00:15:59:10
Speaker:
And I think she actually shared that like, like you know, it’s just a very small, like little hole in the wall kind of coffee place. But still, you know, one day I hope that, you know, I can open like my own roastery. And I remember that. So then when we opened a roastery, oh my gosh, like, it’s been over a decade and finally, like your dream come true.

00:15:59:10 – 00:16:09:17
Speaker:
But but then when the dream come true is like, okay, like it’s not really like, whoa, the roastery is more like need to sign this, need to sign that. You need to do the insurance, do this. It’s like, it’s very funny.

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Speaker:
What’s one thing I expected about the opening? Obviously,

00:16:13:06 – 00:16:22:05
Speaker:
as many can be honest, was maybe one day I normally want to have my own cafes, but I want to have a roastery and even pizza table and,

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Speaker:
Right. So. Yeah. So what’s the most surprising thing? Things that you didn’t expect here. Actually, I think we’ve all like, you know, in your head, it’s like a nice dream. But then when the when the reality hits you is just like sorry ah, this is actually just as mundane as it is, you know, so you’re still kind of doing the same thing, but not in like, full cafe operation kind of setting.

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Speaker:
So it’s still kind of behind the scenes. So, you know, you have like an office and you know, you have

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Speaker:
all your documentation and stuff like that. And I think it’s still the same. It’s just

00:16:51:18 – 00:16:59:10
Speaker:
we’re very used to being in the, in the front, you know, like talking to customers. And and right now it’s just everything just behind the scenes, you know, got office to report to.

00:16:59:11 – 00:17:20:11
Speaker:
So it’s actually a lot more boring than I thought it would be. But it you obviously you can do direct consumers.. Ah yes, wholesaling. Yeah. And supply chains like I’m assuming that that but these things are exciting and. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, we are actively, you know, going to the source for, you know, before for to, to, to push to be a wholesaler lah.

00:17:20:13 – 00:17:50:00
Speaker:
Yeah. But I think with that, with the rising coffee cost is also another challenge. Yeah. And I think we, with seven stores, we are big but not big enough. So I think it’s really like, you know, it’s it’s quite a struggle having to, to control, control the cost of it. Yeah. Right. What would you say the USP of your roastery would be if you know people take wholesale beans from you guys and stuff compared to other roasteries, like, why do they take your beans?

00:17:50:02 – 00:17:55:14
Speaker:
Could you share a little bit more? Why don’t you think, oh, you know, this,

00:17:55:14 – 00:18:08:12
Speaker:
I think because we can listen to what they want. Okay. Yeah. Some customization. Yeah. We can customize. Yeah, I think like. Yeah. The same as how, you know, the cafe runs. Yeah. Like, we will listen to you. Yeah. And there isn’t like, a no as an answer.

00:18:08:14 – 00:18:27:09
Speaker:
Yeah. So I mean we because of how we are like the possibilities are endless right. Yeah. I mean you can try something and if you want it slightly different then we can try to work it out for you. So I think that’s the difference. Yeah. It’s also there’s a very collaborative open view. Yeah. So very crafty in the sense of yeah, you can adjust to the profile of someone you want to be.

00:18:27:11 – 00:18:54:21
Speaker:
Yeah. So that’s awesome. So, moving on to, a popular segment, which is a bit more about like, industry and science and data. Are you guys a metrical business? Do you guys tracks certain business? Keep your eyes on a weekly, daily on monthly kind of basis? I think we regularly check in with, like, our, team leaders, like, you know, to make sure that, the, like, the goals that we set for the month or, like, what, is regularly met.

00:18:54:23 – 00:19:12:20
Speaker:
Yeah. So I think we’re not, like, super, into the numbers is, is more like, you know, if the if the the this this week, you know, people are coming in a bit more. Yeah I think that’s okay. You know. Yeah. Yeah I think like so like for context both of us don’t look at the numbers as much.

00:19:12:22 – 00:19:28:14
Speaker:
Yeah. So I mean like our partners so that’s like the, the numbers game is for them to deal with. Yeah. Correct. So I mean our in terms of KPIs like yeah. Like I think Lionel he definitely looks at the numbers and, and as well like the procurement side as well. So like the food cost for us is.

00:19:28:14 – 00:19:43:20
Speaker:
Yeah like maybe like a lot more training. So people would be like, yeah. Speaking the leaders, like how it would be views, how the new members, how to sell food in the bakery and stuff like that. Anyways, there should be change the menu item. Should we vote on. Yeah. But so I think we are lucky cause there are like four of us.

00:19:43:23 – 00:20:04:24
Speaker:
Yeah, yeah. So we can kind of split. Split that quite a bit, right? Yeah. So, so, like of having a lot more, financial stuff, like maybe choosing a rental spot like, the rental cost and everything productions and know, you guys come together as well. Everybody together is like, everybody together. Yeah. But we also have, like, our own, department and stuff like that.

00:20:04:24 – 00:20:28:08
Speaker:
Yeah. So, for example, for, rental, spot, right. When you go for a place that, you know, maybe you have a higher rental cost, but better footfall when you go for place, we have like relatively lower rental costs. But you know, okay. Footfall like no one lower for sure. Yeah. We rather control the variable of the cost side of things and perhaps, do what we can to, you know, get more performing.

00:20:28:08 – 00:20:51:24
Speaker:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s cool because, different businesses are different from the, the well branded, international brands. Yes. Otherwise. Yeah, yeah. Put money in, get the ice cream. Really? Yeah, yeah. And work something out. Yeah. Because of the. Yeah. How about, cost of goods? You mentioned, another partner in charge of procurement and how do you guys manage that in terms of menu design?

00:20:51:24 – 00:21:02:16
Speaker:
Yeah. Drink design. Like, is there like a target ratio? I’m definitely under 30. Yeah. You know, like 20. Yeah. The per in and stuff like that. But I think for us also

00:21:02:16 – 00:21:11:10
Speaker:
we kind of give and take a little bit. So obviously there are some dishes that you, you don’t earn as much. Yeah. Yeah. And then some, you earn like more.

00:21:11:13 – 00:21:31:00
Speaker:
Yeah. And this is also because I guess we want to have like a better offering. Yeah. I think the reality is it, I mean, whatever you serve at a cafe is not like what you would serve at home. Whatever you have at home is like the top quality, you know, you’ll be the best. And then, like, you know that the process is like, you know, like you really do it slowly and perfectly.

00:21:31:02 – 00:21:52:12
Speaker:
But in the cafe, like turnover is, it’s, you know, it’s fast, right? Yeah. So for us, we still need to get some good quality ingredients to make sure that, you know, it tastes good. Yeah. So I think for us really sometimes it’s the cost maybe a bit higher. Yeah. Yeah. But because if you like, you know we hope that you know people will appreciate that.

00:21:52:14 – 00:22:07:16
Speaker:
Yeah. So then yeah. No the other way to add value is that okay. You want to do banana bread okay I can do the banana bread. So that is you know if we make it in-house then we go to elsewhere. Then I think that’s when we know we can also control like you know, the, the, the quality and stuff like that.

00:22:07:20 – 00:22:25:02
Speaker:
Yeah. I was talking to another guest in the previous episode. Peter, what made you decide you thought about, you know, you kind of everything. Everything? Yeah. Someone who doesn’t want to show. Yeah. That’s that maybe. But now a bit more. Yeah. What I mean, all right. Yeah. So then things maybe the one that. Yeah. The balance between alcohol and alcohol.

00:22:25:07 – 00:22:45:00
Speaker:
Yes. Give it energy and use the wine before. Yeah. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s good to hear that you guys are also, you know, thinking about that then the whole thing about like labor cost ratio is like, you just measure something with our example level, how public? Labor cost.

00:22:45:00 – 00:22:47:04
Speaker:
now we are trying to be a lot leaner.

00:22:47:06 – 00:23:10:10
Speaker:
Yeah. Firstly, because our labor cost is very high, and then also we try to use more like QR ordering and stuff like that just to reduce the labor costs. But we also will track, I guess, like the sales we are per hour. Yeah. And then we figure out from there like ya. Correct. And I think that’s very, very important because even like depending on the months like December is actually a quiet month.

00:23:10:10 – 00:23:25:17
Speaker:
Yeah. And then we will just key like last Tuesday. How was it. And then like this usually how is it then next year they will just kind of like plot. And then we we do start to reduce from there. So that’s how it that’s how it works. This is this concept over here. Is also one I just mentioned about ours.

00:23:25:19 – 00:23:46:00
Speaker:
So they take the, sales data. Yeah, normalize it to the. No. Yeah. And then they actually divide by the account that you share you for. So for example, like you mentioned example in December maybe on that our you generate quite a few others. So just for example, and if you have five people looking at it, it’s like $100 per or.

00:23:46:02 – 00:24:00:13
Speaker:
Yeah. And the idea over here is the reference that to help with the plan is on schedulers and on to make sure that we will move on the schedule. Now, one thing that people always think is on the one about, something that’s impossible because sometimes just opening shift, closing your business is,

00:24:00:13 – 00:24:02:13
Speaker:
you know, best. Yeah, yeah. How about

00:24:02:18 – 00:24:08:19
Speaker:
for your cafe like, is it mainly, part-timers? full-timers? How is the split looking like for you? It’s been really like, for you guys, it’s quite

00:24:08:19 – 00:24:19:09
Speaker:
like one is to one. Right. And usually, like, we have, like, the same number of full-timer to part-timer. Yeah. So like, it is my peak period then, you know, then what we have like two.

00:24:19:10 – 00:24:31:15
Speaker:
Yeah. Two full timers and then two part timers for like, maybe the shop to be quieter then maybe just, like one full time and two part timers. Yeah. But for the kitchen, our staff are all full timers, right? Yeah.

00:24:31:15 – 00:24:36:22
Speaker:
So if I see there’s a new, a center to open a cafe, and then you’re like, I want to make your mistakes.

00:24:36:22 – 00:24:49:12
Speaker:
You only, like, 12 years ago. Any advice for them in terms of KPI, do you have, like, one thing, that issue like, I need to think about this on the get go, you know, from Day 0. Is there any advice for people opening their first cafe?

00:24:49:12 – 00:25:11:07
Speaker:
I think it’s really just make sure the rent is spent out of your spend. Yeah. Just try to keep it to, very low percentage of your sale. Yeah. I mean, for food side, I would say. Yeah. You are not cooking for yourself. Yeah, I think that’s that’s one thing. Yeah. Because, I mean, I don’t know, if you want to scale, it’s, it’s very, very hard to put like the best quality of everything.

00:25:11:07 – 00:25:36:08
Speaker:
Yeah, yeah. So you kind of still have to let go some part of like that, you know, perfectionism or whatever it is. Yeah. In order for it to make sense. And I think for me, if you think that way, even though you may, if you gao wei yourself, at least you can ensure the jobs of your staff, you know, I mean, in your own job, you know.

00:25:36:10 – 00:25:52:24
Speaker:
Yeah. I think it’s, a bit risky to, you know, just get, like, all the best ingredients and then sell. And then in the end, you never realise you’re running a loss. Yeah, cause there are so many other costs that come in that you do not see. Yeah, yeah. So even if you calculate, you think like it’s kind of okay, it’s high but still manageable.

00:25:53:04 – 00:26:11:05
Speaker:
You would see, there a lot of hidden costs that you won’t see. So. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Last question on keeping me from under section. When do you guys decide to open the mix? Like, is it more opportunistic? It is a good they can see it good area. And they’re like, I’ll raise money and find people like when I see more like in the business.

00:26:11:07 – 00:26:33:11
Speaker:
Do you want to make sure, you know, I was a profitable, for example, hey, as a business, we need to have X amount of capital to invest because, you know, rental rental. How do you guys think about the next time, like when you see that one. Let’s go. I think it’s really like, we with the reopening, the other shots will have to do.

00:26:33:11 – 00:26:51:14
Speaker:
Okay. First before we decide. Okay. I think we everything is kind of okay now, and I think, it’s good to this opportunity is also very hard to to let go. So let’s just take it and and be ready for it. So I think we will be able to. Yeah, I think it’s when we also have bandwidth.

00:26:51:16 – 00:27:14:01
Speaker:
Yeah, yeah. So for context, we’ve opened one shop every year except for this year. Yeah. So sometimes it’s, when by the time one shop stabilizes and yeah, once it’s stable, then, because like e.g., you know, like, and at the same time also I think because we are aware that, you know, like rent may go up.

00:27:14:03 – 00:27:31:23
Speaker:
Yeah. So we, if we find a spot that is, you know, like has a, has a better rent and, you know, may not be like the. Yeah. The most ideal spot right where it is. But if the rent makes sense then we will consider. Yeah, yeah. Then we will check out the space. Yeah. And then if everything checks the boxes then we will.

00:27:31:23 – 00:27:56:07
Speaker:
Okay. Then this safe. So just in case the other shop like yeah if the up the rent like that’s too high then we can fall back. Ya. Correct. This one is usually like a year. Yeah. Yeah. It’s always about yeah yeah yeah. But like okay. Yeah. Actually commenting about it like for this especially when we talk about the spot that’s that you need the whole building in particular was, was notorious for you know for rumors for it being on vlog and stuff like that.

00:27:56:07 – 00:28:15:09
Speaker:
So then when we took it away, just like I think the neighbors were just are you sure? I think it may be legal. I’m not like, so you kind of have to be careful, but I think it was one of those, like, I didn’t want this unit I on the street. And then nobody saw the value of, of the unit because it was it was quite and the change of hands is really quite frequent for that unit.

00:28:15:09 – 00:28:39:14
Speaker:
Yeah. So when we took it, we, we, we kind of braced ourselves stuff. Well for an on or five year data. The, What happened? So what are you doing? Which do you’re doing at time? We, we opened Columbus and Upper Thomson before the. So, idea of wanting to find a replacement, you know, like, should at least be gone.

00:28:39:14 – 00:28:57:19
Speaker:
Then, you know, at least we have another flagship. Yeah. There for Apple, though, is more like, we have we have, a customer who, you know, introduce us. We have shop has 20 then, you know, like so one. So I think before the expansion, it’s really a backup plan. You know, like if the shop’s not going to happen, then, you know, we have another.

00:28:57:24 – 00:29:16:10
Speaker:
Yeah. Right. Very impressive of opportunistic mindset and also the fiscal discipline and you know but yeah the most important thing is it’s base and yeah, a little. But I think that one I caught actually inside where if you keep on opening in the year, you cannot cope, right. Yes. You wouldn’t be a good. Yeah. And a successful.

00:29:16:11 – 00:29:41:05
Speaker:
Yeah. So you make manager manage that really really well. So yeah. Kudos on that movie over the other part of the business transformation. So, what would you perspective on, digital transformation? Do you guys invest in any digital products, tools, processes, and what has been life changing on that for you guys? I definitely see it mostly the QR ordering and that, you know, the, the, the weeks and all that.

00:29:41:05 – 00:29:57:11
Speaker:
Yeah, I think because of Covid and, you know, a lot of deliveries, a lot of online ordering took place. So I think that kind of stuck with us with all the COVID’s over. So I think that people are still they used to to use it to ordering through the platform. So yeah. So that has them through.

00:29:57:13 – 00:30:20:16
Speaker:
Right. How has been your ratio for online ordering versus on site versus maybe delivery and stuff like that. Is there any major shift you guys have seen evolve over time as more people using online. Yeah. What do you mean on online ordering as in like delivery or or in-store like scanning in-store. It’s like there’s in-store.

00:30:20:18 – 00:30:38:12
Speaker:
Go to the counter. Yeah. Then there’s another category which is like, I have online order and I self-service. And you know what I mean is the I order the kind of the game. Right? Yeah. I think like at least 90% is like online ordering them. Yeah. And I think they really helped us it to be honest.

00:30:38:12 – 00:30:58:03
Speaker:
Right. When, when our, our partner like, no, if I say no we will do QR ordering. We are like no like, you know, like you lose the human touch, you know, and all that. Right? But actually it ended up so good. Not just in terms of like turnover, like, I mean, obviously like when the customers get like, you know, like ten people can order at once.

00:30:58:05 – 00:31:21:13
Speaker:
But another thing is it kind of manages, the staffs memorial because usually when someone keeps the wrong order Diable, it’s like everyone gets them angry, you know? And so I realized that after it was all online, like, the staff don’t get angry at each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, like, most of them, like, I mean, the person who’s taking orders will be maybe like, sometimes a part timer.

00:31:21:15 – 00:31:36:13
Speaker:
And then about pressure, like when a queue is so long. Yeah, yeah. And then they take the longest time and then they key in the wrong order in the kitchen is like, what this. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I realize it for me even go with that frustration. Yeah. It took away the frustration between like the floor and the kitchen.

00:31:36:15 – 00:31:55:21
Speaker:
Yeah. And that was something that for me is like even more important than like the thought of going fast. Yeah. Cause everyone can can work like in in in in pizza. Yeah. So I think actually, yeah. You know, like experience for the customer is priority. Yeah. But no he’s decent experience for the staff. Yes. So here we can think of it that way as well.

00:31:56:01 – 00:32:17:01
Speaker:
Okay. We reduce staff unhappiness. Yeah. And increase retention. I think it went very well in a way that processes have less friction. Yeah. So. So, wow. This this, something I didn’t expect you to see it, so. Yeah. Is better coaching in other minds because you know, so but no one is very upset because, apart from that, there’s any other things.

00:32:17:01 – 00:32:40:22
Speaker:
So you guys are looking at digitalizing, to scale in the next six months is any projects you guys are looking at any new technology. And I think we have a lot of people asking, yeah, are you going to get, like, the robot and stuff like that? I think, yeah. No, no, I think maybe not. The AI is really it really removes the whole purpose of, you know, being yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:40:24 – 00:33:06:22
Speaker:
How about any of the software, any other innovations, anything. So it was like there was a lot of new centric, any of those things I do, maybe we can consider getting like the whole, you know, get someone to do the hiring for us. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I would see. Yeah. We’ll see. Yeah. So, if, let’s say there was a startup guy in BLK71 office area, he wants to do a startup for F&B, it could be any problem they’re facing right now.

00:33:06:22 – 00:33:20:05
Speaker:
What’s one area that you hope there’s better tools or better products that’ll make your life a lot easier as a entrepreneur? It’s imagine what can be anything. It doesn’t have to be all. The other thing it doesn’t have to be is anything,

00:33:20:05 – 00:33:31:08
Speaker:
funnily enough, I think if there’s a way for, I don’t know. I don’t know what it would be to make customers not so unhappy, you know, like while waiting.

00:33:31:10 – 00:33:48:02
Speaker:
Yeah. Usually it’s always a, like a solution to fix, like, you know, like, for for us to be faster or something. And when I, you know, when, when we travel and we go overseas. Right. Sometimes I see certain cafes like there. So then, you know, there’s only, like two people I can be in Japan, for example.

00:33:48:04 – 00:34:03:17
Speaker:
And I will gladly stand there and wait and watch the guy make the coffee. But why in Singapore, I like I wait two minutes, right? And then I’m like, in duty. Yeah. And I feel that a lot of our costs also comes from the fact that how like Singapore, we are moving very fast. Yeah. And we expect things to be fast.

00:34:03:19 – 00:34:20:17
Speaker:
Yeah. And I feel that FB kind of, suffers because of that. Yeah. Instead of having like three people on the floor, you need six because someone is going to school you. Yeah, yeah. And if there’s a where you like, I don’t know, I hated how they got was like nearly the videos for you or something I don’t know.

00:34:20:19 – 00:34:37:21
Speaker:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But if there’s a way to I don’t know like I mean so waiting time service. What do you call, expectations or. Yeah. Like, how many would compared to and, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know what can be done. Yeah. But I think there are a lot of, like, things that are already done to improve, like our efficiency.

00:34:37:21 – 00:34:56:10
Speaker:
Yeah. You know, but for the customer themselves. Oh, I hear about it, I think I think that the rephrase that also, I think is going to think about how can we make the experience of the customers better. Yeah. And then there is, you know, on like a product or like, like, how do you not. Right as a service.

00:34:56:12 – 00:35:20:05
Speaker:
Yeah. One the meals. And then there’s so many things that you can do with like, music. Yeah. Send fan like, I like you in a certain time. You get something else. Yeah. Yeah. Correct. Yeah, I pet friendly. So then they kind of have to go to be outside. Yeah, yeah, but by the way. Right. Yeah. I was like, I just do that explain how can be an experience.

00:35:20:07 – 00:35:40:23
Speaker:
Yeah. So the food in a cafe with like any of your outlets is not just putting me in my mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The conversation is about, you know, the five senses is, is the channel is the center, the lighting, my face and all experience. So. So yeah, it is very definitely. Any idea. And you put some consulting you then you mentioned one.

00:35:41:00 – 00:35:59:13
Speaker:
Well I guess the training of the staff you know. Yeah I think like the people that we get and you know, if, if they come in with, you know, certain skills, I think that will help a lot of save a lot of time. Right. Yeah. Like maybe like a trainer sets us through the coffee. You know, you’re always trying.

00:35:59:17 – 00:36:19:11
Speaker:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don’t know, maybe. Right. Yeah, yeah, it could be a way, right? Yeah. Sometimes the correct training. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Awesome. I’m moving on to the last segment of our talk, which is the rapid fire. So quick sentence and just listening to people. Okay. What am I saying? Quickly. We need to try out.

00:36:19:13 – 00:36:32:03
Speaker:
Okay. All right. So, but but try to do something so that it’s not too. Okay. Okay. One sentence maximum. Okay. So question number one, who is someone in the industry whom we have learned a lot from?

00:36:32:03 – 00:36:33:19
Speaker:
Under Scapa.

00:36:33:19 – 00:36:35:09
Speaker:
anybody else. So you guys share about it?

00:36:35:09 – 00:36:47:08
Speaker:
So, Andre runs, Apollo? Yeah, I think he’s a he’s a friend. Yeah. So I think for me, I, I really look up to him because he is really great there. Like running like a double.

00:36:47:09 – 00:37:05:20
Speaker:
He’s like a great. Yeah. Massive like great central kitchen. He’s a very light level headed guy. Very very skilled. Yeah. So I think just talking to him about, like processors and stuff like that, I, I’ve learned a lot. Yeah. So I like, ask him a lot of random questions on the phone. Yes. You should, you should.

00:37:05:22 – 00:37:10:15
Speaker:
What’s one piece of advice that you hope someone have given you before you start out? That the first,

00:37:10:15 – 00:37:15:17
Speaker:
stick to your passions. You know, like, if you’re passionate about something, then just stick by and work with your strength.

00:37:15:17 – 00:37:20:20
Speaker:
Take care of your body. I think. Your body. Yeah. You have a, break down recently of.

00:37:20:20 – 00:37:42:21
Speaker:
But I’ve had a lot, I’ve had a lot of breakdowns. Yeah. So like in, in 2019 there I went like deaf on my right side like 100% deaf. Yeah I think I was like just completely like overworked. And then there was like a viral infection to my ear. So within activities it was like kind of a bit like buzzy kind of thing.

00:37:42:23 – 00:37:59:08
Speaker:
And then I went to see the doctors. It like, seems like maybe it’s like a nerve thing. Then obviously we didn’t listen to him continue working. Then the next two days I felt like a lot of vertigo. And then, definitely was like, well, you need to go see doctor. So when see doctor again, send me to ent.

00:37:59:10 – 00:38:17:22
Speaker:
Yeah. And then the check in and I was like, diagnosed 100%. Like one site was just gone. So that was like kind of crazy for me. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like it’s it’s mostly back. I mean, like I went through a lot procedure. So that was like quite scary. Yeah. Because I think like 18, 18 hours a day and a lot it an opening for a short handed.

00:38:17:23 – 00:38:41:16
Speaker:
Yeah. Yeah. And then I’ve also had like my like cooking a lot like no, no. Yeah. And then a lot of like nerve issues. Back issues. Yeah. So just take care of your body idea and yeah, there’s no listeners deadline for me to care about this would be fun. Like. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Okay. Yeah. You guys have a kid that wants to join you in that and be in business.

00:38:41:19 – 00:38:43:19
Speaker:
What’s one advice? What’s out here?

00:38:43:19 – 00:38:52:07
Speaker:
It may not be FB, right? I mean, you can find passion in anything, but as I say, you know, on hot days, just work to your strength. Yeah.

00:38:52:07 – 00:39:02:01
Speaker:
If you had to get keynote on, prepare to be disappointed. Isn’t this the truth? Yeah, but you better be disappointed. But just.

00:39:02:01 – 00:39:21:07
Speaker:
Yeah, it’s actually. Yeah, but you cannot expect it to be, like smooth sailing. Yeah. It will not be. Yeah. So as a conditioning and I, we a very different business soon. And if you know the reason you guys have a partnership. Yeah. Yeah I’m very realistic. Very very different. Yeah. How should people be interested in following your brand?

00:39:21:09 – 00:39:41:13
Speaker:
You guys follow, you just fly. I think most of it would be that. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Shop my teachings in a shop. Let you. Yeah. We must be willing to share coffee with aspiring. Can be on our FB entrepreneur. Anyone? Yes. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Also, if you are, if you know. So, thank you for the time.

00:39:41:13 – 00:39:57:20
Speaker:
Actually, kept at the end of our podcast, but, just want to have one final commentary from each of you. Anything for our audience that you want to talk about that, that, that host deal with you guys, anything that is special. Final comments.

00:39:57:20 – 00:40:03:22
Speaker:
Stay hydrated. Be be good to service crew. You could be good service crew.

00:40:04:03 – 00:40:12:19
Speaker:
All right. Yeah. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Awesome. All right,