Brick-Mortar-Cloud Podcast
Season 2 Episode 2:
Cupcakes, Culture, and Saying No: How Plain Vanilla Grew With Purpose

00:00:10:13 – 00:00:31:24

Welcome to the Brick-Mortar-Cloud podcast, where we share scaling stories of FNB and retail entrepreneurs. This podcast is produced by Nila Studios and StaffAny. And today I have Vanessa from Plain Vanilla to share more about her scaling stories opening multiple outlets in Singapore. Vanessa, welcome to the show. Thank you. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Super, super.

00:00:32:00 – 00:00:47:24
Vanessa, can you share a little bit more about your story and how did you get into food and beverage? So unfortunately, I fall into the category of, one of those people that are very typical. So I was an ex lawyer. I did it for about four years. Then I moved back to Singapore and was a little bit disillusioned with the work.

00:00:48:04 – 00:01:04:12
I was the project finance lawyer, so it was good work. We were doing a lot of, raising finance for things like wind farms and so on. But so it was meaningful. But the trouble is, there’s a junior law. You don’t see any of that, right? So I felt after a while that I really wanted to have my work have more impact on clients, customers.

00:01:04:12 – 00:01:19:09
And then at that point, I think in terms of, you know, a risky thing, like, what’s your skill set, right? You know, after four years being a document monkey, I think the only thing I could really say I could do was bake cupcakes, because I did a lot of it at home. So I just thought, you know, let’s try and build a brand.

00:01:19:09 – 00:01:31:20
Let’s, use the skill set that I have that I know I’m confident off and see where that takes us. So then I went to my boss and I said, can I can I do a sabbatical? I said, can I quit? And he said, no, no, you don’t want to quit. He said, you know, you’re just tired.

00:01:31:20 – 00:01:49:15
So I said, okay, okay. Like, can you just can I just he said, okay, how long, how long can you give me? Maximum nine months. I said, okay, I’ll take it. So that set me up on the journey. And three months later I opened up. Was it three years at six months? Somewhere around there, I then opened up the first store.

00:01:49:17 – 00:02:18:07
We were at Holland Village, teeny space, 150 square foot tall, really very small. I had no employees and that was the plan. But also very strong resolve to not have to crawl back to my old boss and say I need my job back. So, yeah, thankfully it worked out well. I think within the first three months we had some really good, response, good queues lining up, and people seem to like the product so carried on and 13 years later, here we are.

00:02:18:08 – 00:02:40:06
So that’s that’s kind of I guess in short story, there’s a super long sabbatical, nine months becoming 13, 13 years later. How did that happen now? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, so when you first opened your first store and you call it, plain vanilla, what was that? You know, story that comes up with that name, like, how do you choose this name?

00:02:40:06 – 00:02:56:15
And, you know, cupcakes. You mentioned what got you into cupcakes. Was it because of passion when you were a lawyer? You’re already baking. Like, how did you come about and why? Cupcakes. It’s not a very good story, but, I remember being a second year law student, and I was studying at UCL in London, and I was attending a contract class.

00:02:56:16 – 00:03:16:01
And doodling in my books is always during my lectures. And then suddenly I have my lectures, a plain vanilla bonds. And then here I was like, oh, even the ones. And that made me sort of think maybe I should be considering a different career altogether, because if the only time I ever feel interest is in my, you know, I think my prof is talking about fruit, but it’s not.

00:03:16:05 – 00:03:37:07
Yeah. So then that led me to think, oh, okay. Actually, the plan was to open a little store in Borough Market at the time selling brownies, which is why I was baking a lot at the time back in London. And, I was, I was gonna call it plain vanilla brownies. Right. The idea that inspired by this moment, this eureka moment of like, I need to go into food, I never got around to it because a lot of other stuff.

00:03:37:07 – 00:03:54:23
And, you know, life happened. Then I came back and it was, it was like the second year or the first year that I was back, that I thought to myself, I really can’t see myself doing this for the rest of my life. So I went back to my laptop, and I dug up the old business plan that I wrote for plain vanilla brownies and thought, you know what?

00:03:54:23 – 00:04:12:11
I’ll do cupcakes because at that time I had been eating a lot of cupcakes, had moved out of my parents place. And so I was baking a lot. And yeah, I was doing a lot of trial and error baking R&D with, just cupcakes. Enjoyed it. Loved it. I thought also a gap in the market. You know, at that time there wasn’t 12 cupcakes then.

00:04:12:11 – 00:04:31:04
So not really any competitor that seemed to pose serious threat. So why not just give it a go? So, yeah, that’s how the name kind of came about. And, and the product, that’s a great name and a great story from the market to Holland Village. That’s amazing to actually think about that. So now you are on, six outlets or something.

00:04:31:04 – 00:04:52:07
How many others are you running right now? And so, you know, yeah, we’ve got six. We also have a central kitchen at the moment, a growing online bakery. So. Yeah, that’s that’s us six at the moment. So, there’s a growing online bakery concept as well as a six, you know, cafe, like, actual concepts. How is your in time on both of them?

00:04:52:07 – 00:05:12:02
Are you spending more on one than the other? It’s a good question. I think where we are today is that we have built a pretty good managerial team. So the six outlets are run by six really solid managers are they’re fantastic. And so that’s enabled me to spend, I guess, more time on the product. So actually a lot of time now is spent at the central kitchen.

00:05:12:02 – 00:05:32:18
So education pretty young. So we’ve only been around three years now. So a lot of setting up a lot of systems, getting people at just at least so that but I’m really more systems figuring out how to manage different levels of demand. Orders, you know, that kind of thing. So I would say in stores, a lot of the operations I don’t really get too much involved in.

00:05:32:23 – 00:05:52:04
I think it more online because a lot more thought strategy, a lot of looking at data, you know, how can we, change the product range? What what do we think customers want? And that has evolved a lot even in the last three years since we set up the online bakery. So I would say, yeah, actually probably more time spent online looking at the data, working with the team.

00:05:52:04 – 00:06:12:17
Rejigging product range. A lot of seasonal campaigns that we do, which is a whole lot of work, translates to a lot of results. But, yeah, at the moment we’re really trying to think of how to make things more efficient, how to reduce the work, make it more streamlined. In terms of the campaigns, because that’s just nonstop all the time, right?

00:06:12:17 – 00:06:26:06
That’s awesome to hear, because that means that you have managed to scale up, and have a good manager team to run operations, and you go to the frontier of growth and building the brand further. So what’s the vision for PV like? What do you think you guys want to achieve in the next, you know, five, ten years?

00:06:26:12 – 00:06:41:15
Yeah. Happy to say that I have an answer. I think I, I fall into the category of, founders that don’t really think too much about exits. And I’ve been asked that question so many times over the last 13 years. And I think last year was the time I thought, you know, I really need to figure out the answer to this question.

00:06:41:15 – 00:07:06:12
So we are actually hoping to grow towards market saturation in the next five years, really is doubling the number of stores that we have. We think that market saturation is somewhere between 12 to 15 stores, so if we can get then the next five years we’d be quite happy. And then after that look beyond our shores. I think really, bigger markets where maybe coffee and cake have more of a cultural significance.

00:07:06:14 – 00:07:35:11
I think here there are some local players, like, you know, your coffee time coffee. That’s a bit hard to challenge. And so hard to see snaking queues for coffees because of that. Right. So, yeah, I’m really hoping that we can make greater impact if we move outside of Singapore. That’s awesome to hear. So, when we look at your cafes and your coffee and your cakes and your products, what is the main differentiator when someone has a PB product compared to another, you know, bakery or cafe like, what’s that moment that you guys are trying to drive towards?

00:07:35:11 – 00:08:00:01
We believe that our core differentiator is our brand, the brand experience and the emotional connection that we build with our customers. It’s very intangible. So a bit harder to sort of define. But, you know, it’s the sense of it has to be PV when it’s our cupcakes, when it’s our birthday, you know, it has to be PV when we are celebrating graduation.

00:08:00:03 – 00:08:18:03
So I think for us, we really try to be present with our customers when it comes to moments that matter for them in their lives, whether it’s they lost their job, they found a new job. You know, they got married, they started going out with a new boyfriend, you know, and we’ve had a number of people that write to us and say, can I please take my engagement photos in your store?

00:08:18:03 – 00:08:35:15
Because so because your brand is. Yes. This is how where we met and, you know, all this sort of stuff. So it is, it is it’s, it’s really nice and yeah, I can think of a few brands locally that I feel have achieved that. And, something that we continue to aspire to was it’s really not easy because it’s not straightforward.

00:08:35:15 – 00:09:00:00
You know, it’s not like building, a logistics supply chain network that’s expensive. You know, that’s a lot easier to sort of say, okay, I can tick off a list. You know, for us it’s it’s down to more intangible things like, service, hospitality, experience, relationship with customers, you know, that sort of thing. That’s awesome. So in terms of your journey the last 13 years, I’m sure there’s going to be successful stories and innovations and also challenges.

00:09:00:01 – 00:09:18:10
Can you share one of the, you know, moments that you did something well and innovated well? And can you share one experience that perhaps was a bit challenging? You know, like things weren’t as rosy as it seems for us as a brand, we generally try to stay away from trends and fads. We’re all about going back to basics and making even better, right?
00:09:18:11 – 00:09:39:23
So at the end of the day, we want our customers to taste our product and feel nostalgia and feel a sense of familiarity. So I think in trends, innovation, not so much in terms of the product, but I would say that I’m really quite proud of our efforts in terms of our online, e-commerce bakery, considering the fact that we really only started it at the, you know, the month of Covid, circuit breaker.

00:09:39:23 – 00:10:01:19
So it was March 20th, 20. The team built it in five days. Incredible. Really. Kudos to them. The amount of work and effort to get it up and running. And then I think ever since then it’s been an evolution, you know, nonstop. So when we first set up the online bakery, it was really to, help our customers have the same experience that they can get in store, but because of Covid, they can’t.

00:10:01:19 – 00:10:19:13
Right? So then we want to be able to deliver that single brownie or that single cupcake to them. And then over the years, we realized that that stopped being the use case. And so looking at a lot more data sort of trends, keywords and things like that, we then evolved it much more to the current use case, which is really more celebrations, catering, gifting.

00:10:19:15 – 00:10:39:13
And just that slight pivot, you know, thinking about product range, thinking about, I mean, edge is one thing because digital marketing of course, but just the products, right. You know, how can we better meet our customer needs? That’s made a huge difference in terms of the revenue. And last year alone, you know, I mean, even Christmas was not great last year because a lot people traveling, it was not as good as the year before.

00:10:39:13 – 00:10:55:22
But overall in 2024, we saw double digit growth. So it’s fantastic. Really good. Yeah I mean I’m super proud of the team and all the efforts there and it’s really a team effort together. One deep dive over here to let people learn a bit more. So when you did Covid digitalization, I’m assuming you use third party platforms like all your foodpanda and Grab.

00:10:55:22 – 00:11:18:03
All right. Yeah. And now you evolve into a lot more your brand, your e-commerce. Does it mean that they go directly to you and you fulfill both the orders as well as a logistics? Can you share a bit more on that strategy in terms of, what we call £0.03? We don’t find a lot of traction there. I mean, I think the, the £0.03 partners have been very, engaged, wanting to help us grow.

00:11:18:03 – 00:11:36:01
But generally I find that the type of product that we are, it’s not like pizza. So we haven’t seen a lot of traction. I guess we also haven’t really tried to hack that because because it makes much more sense from a revenue perspective for us to focus on our own. Right. Channel. Right where we don’t have to pay upwards of 30%, you know, that sort of thing.
00:11:36:01 – 00:11:54:03
So, so we don’t focus too much on it. Is there? It’s there. And during Covid, great results for people like super. Right. Opened a lot of, our customers minds, I think in terms of thinking about how they see the product and openness to getting a cup of coffee, you know, and ordering it on a, on an app.

00:11:54:05 – 00:12:14:21
Our online platform is really for customers who have parties or one last minute birthday cakes, you know, that sort of thing. And we really try and tailor it more in that direction. And of course we hope to grow that way. So truthfully, we don’t spend a lot of time on 3D at all. In fact, we went from three partners to two, and it was a very deliberate intention because we found that after three, one was just not seeing much traction.

00:12:15:01 – 00:12:31:19
Instead, it was hurting the brand because, you know, items were getting delivered and damaged. And, there just wasn’t that synergy in terms of the partnership. So we just stopped. And so, you know, if it’s not serving us, we’ll stop and find other ways to, to plug in the revenue. But, I think our own channel has served as much better than the three PE channel.

00:12:31:19 – 00:12:47:06
Yeah. Right, right. And you guys manage also the logistics, packaging, everything? Yes. All the way. Yes. So, we have an internal van, so we have one, van that does actually, it serves a lot of internal use so that the six stores from the city to the six stores. And then then it also does a little bit of what we call an advance order.

00:12:47:06 – 00:13:07:01
So end customer and consumer deliveries. But a lot of it now is we have logistics partners that help us. And that’s been good actually. Yeah. Really helpful. Can you share also like, maybe one experiment that you did that didn’t turn out so well, one campaign you tried to do that didn’t do so well that people can avoid making that mistake from I don’t have any horror stories.

00:13:07:01 – 00:13:28:17
They’re the one campaign that we’ve really been trying to get into is Mooncake Festival. But we have not done it yet. It’s not really our type of product. And I’ve spoken to some of the people in industry who have thought that maybe it’s not really worth the effort because the hotels have such a large, share of the market that there’s almost no point focusing on the amount of work and all that.

00:13:28:19 – 00:13:51:17
So I don’t really have horror stories there. We tend to be very careful with the amount of work and effort that we put into campaigns, making sure that before we, you know, before we run, we sort of take baby steps. So generally no horror stories, but, experience that I’ve had that have has left a very painful and deep impression for me is, when we try to open up our, CBD store, I think that was just not a good venture.

00:13:51:17 – 00:14:11:22
And it didn’t end well. So basically, we had taken a sublease from someone that was, taken off the whole building and eventually the main tenant went into liquidation. We had a new landlord, essentially, and the new landlord didn’t get along with us, the control and everything. Right? Yeah. I just just wasn’t seeing eye to eye and, a bunch of different things.

00:14:11:22 – 00:14:26:11
And I think somehow the mind also has a way of like blocking out all the, you know, the nasty things. But essentially what happened was we wanted to leave, the unit. Right. And they locked the doors on us. And so we were trying to remove our things from there, and it was it was nasty. And in the end, we had cupcakes.

00:14:26:11 – 00:14:46:10
I was sitting in there for like, months. They didn’t let us go in and take all our fridges and so on. So this stuff is just I don’t know how what they did in the end. But yeah, that was that was probably the worst experience I’ve ever had in terms of landlords, in terms of ventures. And, you know, things that we’ve, we’ve how would you advise, entrepreneur in PHP to avoid that, unhappy experience?

00:14:46:12 – 00:15:06:03
Definitely. One of the things that I’ve learned is it’s okay to say no. In the past, I think I’ve been very I found it very easy to get blinded by. Oh, wow. You know, this space looks good. And, you know, there’s a there’s think of all the things it could be, you know, versus trying to apply a more practical lens or a more real lens.

00:15:06:05 – 00:15:23:20
One thing I’ve also found is that it’s important to farm for different opinions, you know, whether it’s within the team or, people who might be negative nancys because you want those voices to say, are you sure about this? You know, have you gone down there? Have you have you have you check this out at this time and you know, and and consider this, that or the other.
00:15:23:20 – 00:15:36:15
So and then I’ve learned after that it’s okay to say no. You know, it’s, it might seem good, but if you’re not 100% sure, don’t try and make up in your mind all the reasons why this is going to work, and instead tell yourself you know it’s okay. Walk away from it and then something better will come up again.

00:15:36:15 – 00:15:53:12
So that was a really yeah, one of those experiences that for me, I felt, yeah, it served me well. Ever since then we there have been occasions where we’ve said no and, we’re not in a rush. We we take our time, you know, we deliberate more. We sort of, try to be more intentional. And I think that’s been good.

00:15:53:12 – 00:16:14:17
Yeah. But one of the things I know about your brand is that you guys, really celebrate the experiences of people, right? So, I know that on people’s birthday, they could, like, redeem a cake. Something like that. Yeah. So, Yeah, I just want to know, how was that strategy? Like, do people that redeem actually our customers or do sometimes you see those cheapo people, they just pick and never become a customer.

00:16:14:17 – 00:16:29:18
And then it’s like raising marketing dollars, but at the same time is, you know, what you stand for and also want to hear the experience because some brands are also thinking, hey, should we do that? Should we, you know, do what you guys are doing or not, you know? So how how do you like, share about experience?

00:16:29:18 – 00:16:50:02
Yeah, yeah. I one of our brand, values and brand truth that we subscribe to is the more you share, the more you have. So we generally always on the side of being more generous, whatever it is, whether it’s, in-store experience or things like loyalty program. Right. And, you know, they come to, to come and ask me, are you sure you’re giving out so many points, right.

00:16:50:04 – 00:17:11:22
So we try we try to be generous of us. And I think, so yeah, recently we’ve had the, unfortunate experience of coming across some social media content where social media personalities have taken it upon themselves to spread with, you know, their followers, information about where they can get freebies. And, of course, you know, we were included in one of them.

00:17:12:02 – 00:17:39:05
Our loyalty program allows anyone who signs up and you don’t have to make any purchase. So could you just sign up? Yeah. Honestly, you can put any bogus deals. So let’s say, you know, it’s January and your birthday is in September, but you decide that. Yeah, I want a free kick this month. You can easily just put in, you know, your your birthdate as January and and we won’t check, you know, so you can rock up at the store, show the app and, and get a free slice of cake.

00:17:39:05 – 00:18:01:00
And that’s the, that’s the offer. So, yeah, there’s just been a little bit painful. I mean, it’s forced us to look deeper into our numbers, analytics and really analyze, like whether the loyalty program is serving us, whether these redemptions are actually helping us drive returning customers. What what is it doing for the brand? Really? Right. So unfortunately, we found that one out of every five customers redeem without spending.

00:18:01:02 – 00:18:18:21
And, we also have an equal proportion, about 20% of customers who hold accounts but have not spent with us at all in the lifetime of, of their loyalty memberships. So, yeah. So something we’re looking into, we’re planning to, put in certain guardrails and make it just a little bit harder for people to come and get a freebie from us.

00:18:18:23 – 00:18:46:13
Hopefully that means that we can take better care of our existing customers. That’s really the goal. Yeah. But, you know, don’t want to take too much of a negative spin on it. People will be how they are. And I tell the team, let’s not set the small stuff. Let’s try and really focus on the value we’re trying to deliver to our customers and not get too cross or angry or upset or, and, you know, indignant about, some other customers who may feel like for them, the greatest value we add is freebies.

00:18:46:13 – 00:19:03:09
You know, I like your mindset, like, having that mindset of, giving first and sharing and building, you know, greater community and the experience of the customers that care really matters the most. And I think the way you manage your team and say, hey, don’t worry about that. You know, one out of 5 million members is huge and there’s a lot of costs involved.

00:19:03:11 – 00:19:17:06
And of course, we have to have some guardrails. So eventually, I think the mindset of you educating your team and sharing the case about the, the other three, the three that matters. Yeah, it’s a great experience for them because the other one that represents the brand and the business, and I thought that was very, very meaningful.

00:19:17:06 – 00:19:38:08
So hopefully you get some, you know, mechanisms to prevent that. For one, I know, company and they also have a free cake. But you have to have a transaction on your card. If not, you can’t have a cake. Yeah. That is maybe one of the things you do. And I think that’s very fair. I mean, like if I go down to PV and I get a cake and I just need to have a coffee and is a really good value, like, like people shouldn’t be complaining, but it’s good.

00:19:38:10 – 00:19:57:08
Thank you for the, the, the kind gesture and celebrating birthdays. Yeah, definitely. And it’s, you know, it’s been so good for me because the people that have come to me and said financial have you seen this is my store manager as well. And so I love the fact that they feel so much of a sense of ownership, you know, protecting the brand and saying, like, we can’t let this know what happened to us kind of thing.

00:19:57:08 – 00:20:15:06
So that’s been really nice to see. Yeah. So moving on to the next section of our talk show, which is talking about operating a business, in a bit detail. So, having six outlets now 13 years and experience, are you guys a metric or business? Do you guys have a lot of KPIs, terms of, management meetings, meetings and stuff like that?

00:20:15:06 – 00:20:31:11
You know, what are some metrics that you track? I would say that we want to be more of a magical business, but not as much as we hope to be. But overall, in terms of managing the business, have there have been for a few years now a couple of ratios that we look at. And so a lot of the management is more sort of kind of more NLP.

00:20:31:13 – 00:20:52:03
You know, we look at the overall PNL and then get a sense of whether, things are looking good or not and whether we need to tweak anything. I think the downside of that has meant that we are not as responsive as, we could be. Let’s say if there are numbers that are getting skewed that maybe don’t look as good as we want them to look, but the upside, of course, is that the team can focus more on other things, right?

00:20:52:03 – 00:21:09:20
You know, in terms of delivering service and so on. Do you guys give your managers, let’s say, overall profitability goals after revenue minus net costs? Cogs labor. No, no. If we don’t even do that okay. So I think it’s something that sales target at least. Yeah. Okay. It’s just guess we do have that. It’s tricky, right?

00:21:09:20 – 00:21:27:10
Because we don’t want the managers to think too singularly about the revenue numbers. So it’s useful. And getting the team together, breaking down the daily targets and saying, okay, when this close, you know, let’s push a little bit how did that sort of thing. But you also don’t want them to be so focused on the sales target that they forget that it’s also a lot.

00:21:27:11 – 00:21:47:20
But the customer experience, you know, so when when we have bad days, right, where the revenue is not great, I tell the team, okay, you know, let’s give up the free stuff, the stuff we’re gonna throw at the end of the day, just give out customers, you know, use it as an opportunity to build a relationship or let them try something new that they haven’t tried before, believing that they will come back and that you will leverage on that investment later on.

00:21:47:20 – 00:22:03:05
You know, further down the road. Sometimes it’s hard because if we focus too much on the revenue number and we sort of get upset about it, or we tell the team, oh, you’re not performing x, y, z, because you’re not hitting these numbers, then they become so focused on just, I have to hit the number that they’re losing sight of the bigger picture.

00:22:03:05 – 00:22:15:14
And so that’s what we don’t want the managers to do. So we take a very collaborative view. You know even for myself it’s not for the managers to achieve. If you don’t achieve it then you haven’t done your job. You know that’s not really the view. It’s the sort of what else do we think we could be doing at your store?

00:22:15:14 – 00:22:34:09
You know, whether it’s the experiential things in terms of driving a return or whether it’s more kind of initiatives that could expand the product category. The managers are great. They always giving me ideas. We just don’t want them to be so focused that, you know, they end up evolving the customer experience. You know, I said, we we are not a boat key restaurant, okay?

00:22:34:09 – 00:22:50:24
Don’t stand outside and play along the the menu. Okay. That’s not ready yet. He’s worried that they end up doing the kind of thing they’re so desperate for the revenue, you know, so it’s really like framing in the right way for them. So sales targets. Yes. Profitability less so. But we do look at two categories, which is really Cogs.

00:22:51:02 – 00:23:08:21
You know, that’s significant for us really, really a big thing that we, we try to focus on. And then also of course manpower. So in terms of Cogs, we try to go somewhere within the range of 25 to 30. An ideal number would be 23. That’d be perfect. Yeah. It’s a lot of if you will, something. So it’s hard to achieve.

00:23:08:21 – 00:23:23:03
But we are pushing we’re pushing very hard towards that. And I think also analyzing what things need to change. So for example, last year we took on a new app that’s intended to track better our spend. It’s called G Mart. I don’t know whether very good, but yeah, we we love Z market. It’s been great for us.

00:23:23:03 – 00:23:40:03
Easy to import, easy to pull data numbers and so on. So that’s been great. And they also sync with zero, which is our counter example. Perfect. So that’s been fantastic. We need to crunch the numbers a little bit more I think to really see where we maybe looking a couple of percentage points, but that’s what this year maybe, so that’s Cogs then.

00:23:40:03 – 00:24:00:11
I think manpower is the other big thing. So for us, because our stores is pretty predictable, right. So in terms of the number of transactions in a month, it’s quite consistent month to month. And in terms of foot traffic pattern, if you look at our average sales per hour, pretty consistent. So we have a very clear and established pattern of footfall.

00:24:00:13 – 00:24:20:13
It’s pretty busy in the mornings and then it spikes, you know, at a certain point for lunch and then it comes down. And then depending on whether it’s a weekday, a weekend that will determine what time it’s on, it’s not too slow. So all those things have allowed us to establish a shift pattern, where I’m now able to say to the managers, okay, this is the cap on the number of hours that you should deploy on a weekday.

00:24:20:13 – 00:24:36:00
This is the maximum amount you should deploy on a weekend. This is your weekly cap and do what you want with it, right. This is the recommended pattern. My advice is don’t stray because it’s worked, tried and tested. We know it works. But within that weekly cap, you can maneuver a little bit to the left and to the right.

00:24:36:00 – 00:25:04:22
You know, you can shift some stuff and then you can send people home if you don’t need them, because it’s a slow day. So that generally has worked well, hopefully will but stop any pretty soon and hopefully you’ll be able to get that number on the dashboard. But for now, it’s a cheat sheet that we’ve established where we get the team to plug in the number of shifts that they’re deploying per team member on a monthly basis, and then that then allows us to tabulate, sort of what the total number is in terms of man hours, so I can track that vis-a-vis the target and then based on the fixed cost, because they’re full

00:25:04:22 – 00:25:21:21
timers versus the kind of variable cost, depending on whether they’re part time, full time, we then have a number that we work towards at the end of the month. So then I get the month and number. I then compare that with the theoretical number that’s from the staffing. And then we see what the variance is. And if there is any variance then the managers are asked to explain it.

00:25:21:21 – 00:25:37:15
Or you know, is it because people are on leave or you know, what’s the reason? So generally it’s pretty well controlled. I’ll be honest and say that actually the thing that really works about in terms of manpower is our HQ costs HQ. And those are the things that, we really struggle with. I don’t know, do you have that?

00:25:37:15 – 00:25:57:05
I mean, you know, in trying to build an enterprise or a team or a brand, you know, you need kind of the engine at the back to keep it going. And, and of course, the people on the floor, the team on the floor. Super important. But at the same time, you want minds at the back to be thinking about strategy, about numbers, looking at data and all that stuff is exciting because I.

00:25:57:05 – 00:26:13:03
Yeah, yeah, we call his Q concierge. Exactly. So we have to think hard about how to be strategic. I mean, I’ve had FB friends have said to me, you’ve got too many people in your brand, 12 people in your marketing team. You know, you just get one person to send Adams out, you know? And I just don’t think that the content that we push can be so easy to use.

00:26:13:03 – 00:26:30:21
Yeah, exactly. So so it’s interesting, you know, to hear these views and then to, to be sort of taking it in and thinking, does that work for us? You know. And if it doesn’t then because I’m sure you know that person’s PNL probably looks easier to manage from, from a, you know, hey, to cost. So something for us to mull on and see whether we can improve.

00:26:30:22 – 00:26:55:11
Right. Is there, you know, some commentaries, I think that you mentioned that you’re not very magical. Actually, you guys are very metrical. Is just that maybe you don’t, and force it to the managers to be our burden on, you know, on their shoulders on a day to day basis, but actually, you know, implementing, cost control to them and, and linking to zero as well as the spreadsheet you have looking at cost and man hours, albeit men are still it’s, very, very intense.

00:26:55:13 – 00:27:09:18
Of course, with staff and things would be a lot more automated in terms of labor costs, ratios, in terms of sales and labor hours, numbers to the hour. Right. But what you are doing is actually best practice already. At least you have that recommendation based on your footfall, based on the demand drivers, what the supply drivers should be.

00:27:09:20 – 00:27:27:21
And, giving that recommendation managers and giving them some allowance to play with because you can’t divide a person into half. Right. And there’s still some give and take. Nobody’s going to do a two hour shifts minimally for the six. So yeah. So I think I think you are exercising a lot of benevolence as well as, you know, some kind of a flexibility in terms of managing these metrics by the same firms.

00:27:27:21 – 00:27:44:16
You have them you have them in the back of envelope. That’s really, really good. Maybe the commentary on, HQ costs, right. One thing that maybe I’ve talked to the entrepreneurs, but, one thing I’ll share is that while you may have a lot more in branding spending or, you are building a different business from other people, you are doing a lot more online orders.

00:27:44:16 – 00:28:09:04
You are building experiences. You are trying to make people feel differently in the outlets as compared to someone at grab and Go. Maybe, a fried item, right? That is not exactly what are trying to create an experience. So I think the curation for brand assets, you know, branding guides, music, experiential as a whole, marketing words, content copy, you know, everything falls into place.

00:28:09:04 – 00:28:27:21
So, so each to its own end. And again, every business is slightly different. So. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, I know if you know that. Yes, yes. Hello. Thanks for that. Yeah. Last point on the, cost optimization and KPIs. People always talk about rental being the biggest killer. Whether it makes it all fails, an outlet that you operate.

00:28:27:23 – 00:28:43:21
Do you guys actually also, you know, subscribe to that? Like when you choose a location, how do you pick a PV outlet? And, how important is, you know, a premium that you pay for a good location with good footfall versus, maybe less premium location, but footfall was kind of okay. And the rent is a little bit okay.

00:28:43:21 – 00:29:02:03
How do you think about rent ratio. So there’s a very clear percentage that we don’t exceed. For us it’s 15%. You know, we don’t we don’t go beyond that. If we can bring it down lower, we would do our best to do that. And that has served us quite well in terms of our model. I’ve heard different things from other people in terms of, you know, that it can go up to 20%.

00:29:02:03 – 00:29:23:09
So I really depends on the business model. Your your numbers. It has also meant that we have lost out, you know, we it’s very difficult for us to go into malls. Right? I also feel that it doesn’t really serve the brand very well. The mall set up and for us, we’re really much more about neighborhoods, about finding communities that we can, you know, put down roots with.

00:29:23:09 – 00:29:39:14
And, our goal is really to be the local neighborhood cafe of choice, you know, and so hopefully how we know will succeed, will we are succeeding is if we’re in your neighborhood that we we know you’re choosing to come to us, you know, versus the other options. And then we know that we, you know, we’ve done our job well.

00:29:39:14 – 00:30:03:08
So, so that’s that has meant that we have more options, you know, in terms of not needing to exceed that 15% or, you know, things like 20, 30 K insane. You know, I was I was offered recently, in one of the, the Central Orchard mall’s like ground floor unit, really good visibility, but almost $100,000. And I was just like, no way.

00:30:03:13 – 00:30:22:13
They hey, there’s this there’s no way we could we would want to work with that. You know, even if you tell me that the footfall is that much, you know, I just think that’s just not our model. So we wouldn’t go this close to that. I think that as a entrepreneurs, we need to know what our ideal customer profiles are and what the brand stands for.

00:30:22:13 – 00:30:40:05
And making those choices may seem difficult. Oh, that’s a great footfall. Great, great. A kind of like place, but it’s not what you are building to work. Then focus on making a decision that it looks like it looks great, right? It looks like it’s working for others. And yeah, you know, you feel like I missed out on that, you know?

00:30:40:05 – 00:31:00:05
But maybe you luck out instead of myself. Yeah. No, no. Yeah. I dodged a bullet. Exactly. Just now we talk about KPIs and you actually talk about digitalization. So scaling businesses in brick and mortar. Usually we talk about any digitalization trends and things that you’ve seen. Are there 1 or 2 things that you have seen in, you know, your last few years that you think are exciting?

00:31:00:07 – 00:31:21:04
In innovation and digitalization for your kind of business? Well, I’ve not so much a trend, but I definitely think for us, the next step is to look at the central kitchen and where we can automate more there. Digitalizing I’m not sure whether that’s something that we can do that, but if there’s a way that we could leverage on that to improve efficiencies and so on, that would be super exciting for us at this stage.

00:31:21:05 – 00:31:35:21
Operationally on the floor, it’s something that we’ve always been doing. I think all along, the less people we can use, the better. You know, one of the first things we did was to, go cash free. And this is pre-COVID. And a lot of times, you know, at that time a lot of people were not doing it.

00:31:35:21 – 00:31:54:02
And we have huge backlash from our customers who were very upset that we’re not taking their cash and so on. But it served us very well. And so I think that’s really, you know, we’re thinking, how can we streamline, optimize for efficiencies, and improve accuracy, collection of data and all those sorts of things. So last year we adopted, we onboarded no, no app.

00:31:54:02 – 00:32:12:00
And that was great for us as a, as an operational tool. So we were able to move off g sheets for our tracking of, you know, maintenance issues, operational install issues that we need to track. And so, so that was really fantastic. And just like channeling all that through our request for procurement and was fantastic there.

00:32:12:02 – 00:32:27:05
And then this year, what we’re planning to do is we actually want to, try and launch in our stores a slightly different format. So we tried. No, it has worked for us. We’re wondering whether or not there’s another format that will work better. And, we found an app actually, that, is based in the UK.

00:32:27:05 – 00:32:45:03
Okay. It’s more of a checklist type format where throughout the day, every day there’s a checklist and it’s made up of some core, kind of tasks that, you know, opening checklists, closing checklists and that sort of stuff is like happens every day. But the great functionality here is that it can also be built on a day to day basis.

00:32:45:03 – 00:33:00:14
So let’s say, for example, we are launching a new menu on on the 1st of March, for example. And I already know now we can easily activate and include in that store’s checklist for the day to flip it down there. Yeah, exactly. You can be right. Yeah. And then you can have checklists. Do you have the menu in-store?

00:33:00:14 – 00:33:15:07
Has your team been briefed. You know, and then that started this. We need to go through that and make sure. So in that sense nothing gets overlooked I think gets forgotten and just able to plan ahead, you know put things in, make sure that nothing’s, you know, falling under the radar. So really excited about that. We haven’t we haven’t launched it yet.

00:33:15:09 – 00:33:32:07
Probably towards the end of Q1. We’ll be doing that. And yeah, it’s great. Even things like toilet checklist, you know, it just pings you every couple hours, you know, like these. Yeah, exactly. You know, and reminders. And the great thing is, at the end of the day, you can look at the dashboard and see how many percentage, how, you know, what’s the percentage that they fulfilled.

00:33:32:07 – 00:33:46:21
And if it’s below a certain amount then it pings up red. And then you need to go to asset manager. Like what’s going on. What happened here. Like you know so we love that that kind of dashboard. Anything that gives us data to work with that can help us see how the stores are doing or how the team is doing through number.

00:33:46:21 – 00:34:07:20
You know, that that’s really helpful. So I’m looking forward to that this year. Super, super actually for plain vanilla, you guys are actually not that vanilla. Actually you guys are using a lot of good tools that, most other businesses are not actually fully implemented. So good on that. Good on that. Moving on to fab industry, there’s lots of problems that you will overcome in your 13 years.

00:34:07:22 – 00:34:41:14
If you had a magic wand, what would be something that you hope someone would solve for you? I think the hardest thing is a culture piece, culture piece building people within culture. Yeah. I mean, I think chasing growth, is, strategy. All that is, I think, much easier than the culture piece. Right. Getting the team together towards a way of behaving, getting the team together towards a way of thinking, aligned towards a certain goal.

00:34:41:16 – 00:35:00:15
Because everyone has different motivating, so everyone works for different reasons, you know? So I think that part is really the hardest. That and hiring, you know, I feel like a lot of the times you can have plans and you can want this and you can want that. But the question is, can you assemble the team to deliver on the things that you want to achieve?

00:35:00:17 – 00:35:17:14
And that’s so difficult, right? I mean, over the years, even myself as, as leader of the organization, I think I’ve learned so much trying to get a number to in trying to find somebody who can, you know, help me let go. You know, someone who I feel like, maybe has the right mindset. And then, you know, you start stop, start, stop.

00:35:17:14 – 00:35:42:08
You put someone and you learn what it’s like to work with someone like that and what you learn about things, about yourself also. And so I think the people piece is really the most challenging, the most difficult, and I don’t know what sort of magic one you need to like solve that problem. But if you could just bring me a team that is read, my mind is you know, aligned with me in terms of the way forward.

00:35:42:10 – 00:36:03:24
Doesn’t always need persuading, doesn’t always need kind of, you know, explaining, that would be phenomenal. I think, you know, right. Talent. But fill the gaps, you know what I mean? All these things and my my weaknesses and be able to patch in, well, the things I don’t do well and better stuff. They know what my weaknesses are because they can come in and just fill in those gaps.

00:36:04:01 – 00:36:17:09
I think that’s that’s probably one of the things I would, let’s hope one day is and it can be that magic one because, there was a reason why I started this business as well, because I used to manage FNB. Yeah. And I did everything like that you mentioned. And dealing with people is always the most difficult thing.

00:36:17:09 – 00:36:33:15
Yeah. And hence, you know, we did stuff I need to manage it better. So I’m looking forward to that. You guys move so fast. Well, Eugene was showing us my, so my business manager did a demo with you guys in August last year, and then she said in at the last demo with Eugene, and she said, it looks totally different.

00:36:33:15 – 00:36:51:01
And I was like, yeah, crazy, like amazing. I was so blown away. Like, that’s what, five months, right? Right, right. Something insane. Well done. Super. So talking about moving quickly and moving to the last part of the show, which is on the rapid fire questions, I see a quick question and you answer as short as you can try.

00:36:51:01 – 00:37:08:11
I will try my best. Best. All right. That’s I the first question who is someone in the street? You respect and learn a lot from you. I mean there’s lots of people that I, I respect look up to. Not necessarily from the FNB. It could be anybody that shaped your operations, shape your mindset in doing business, you know, like 40 something, right?

00:37:08:12 – 00:37:30:23
Yeah. Well it’s tough. Not because these people don’t exist, but because I think myself personally, in terms of my journey, I have been quite, I don’t know if insula is the right word, but I’ve focused very much internally for the last, I guess, decade. And it’s really only in the last one two years I’ve started looking outward a bit more and, talking to people and trying to figure out how I can ask the right questions.

00:37:30:23 – 00:37:56:06
I can learn from folks. And, yeah, I mean, I would say, actually, one of the people that has left a great impression on me is, Elena, that she connected me and Eugene, actually, and she’s been so giving with her time, and she’s been so helpful in terms of, wanting to help you succeed, you know, and advice she’s given me, even the little bits that we’ve had in the few conversations we’ve had, has been just so helpful.

00:37:56:06 – 00:38:14:06
So, yeah, she’s definitely one person that I hold in very high regard. What’s one advice you wish someone gave you before you started your first outlet at Holland Village? Find a friend. Do it with a friend. Don’t go alone. It’s it’s. We found a way. I found a way somehow in the last couple of years. But I have to say that it certainly hasn’t been.

00:38:14:06 – 00:38:34:04
I don’t wanna use the word lonely because it’s so cliche, but I can imagine that the journey would have been a lot more enjoyable if there was someone alongside. Sometimes someone alongside, maybe someone you bicker and fight and causing problems. Last summer guest spoke about co-founder issues as well. Yeah, well, you know, that’s true. But also I think that person may have saved me from a lot of mistakes that I’ve made over the years, you know?

00:38:34:04 – 00:38:50:06
So, I mean, now, in hindsight, I think probably not when I’m becoming that person, but now in hindsight, I’m nice. It’s good to have somebody disagree with you. Right? You know, and, it can be very valuable. Right? If your kids are likely to join you in your journey building PV, what would you tell them? Run, run.

00:38:50:12 – 00:39:10:23
How far away? I have three kids, and, I it’s. No, I have not. I’m not into the second gen me at all. You know, it’s, for me, it’s. You have to want to do this. I think we’re moving into a different stage now, right? Where? Where? Hopefully in the next five years, my hours will improve.

00:39:10:23 – 00:39:28:16
It’s going to not become the kind of, like, seven days a week sort of thing, which is to some extent now, I think operationally there’s not, there’s more building that we can do support wise. Right. Hopefully we get there and then if someone were to come in and want to take over, you know, but I just I don’t really believe in it.

00:39:28:16 – 00:39:42:11
I feel like if my son or daughter want to come in and they want to be a part of the business, they should interview like anybody else, and they should prove their worth and show that they have the skill set that is necessary for the job that we want to give them. And it shouldn’t matter what their last name is.

00:39:42:11 – 00:40:00:17
So as far as I’m concerned, I don’t have any desire for I’d rather sell it off to a strategic partner who can take it to the next level. Yeah, it’s like, you know, that’s I think that’s better for the business too. If you can. Old friend that visited you from the UK and, grab a bite at PV, what would you order for this old friend and hang out or.

00:40:00:19 – 00:40:24:20
Oh, yeah. Well, if it’s savory, I would definitely go for the chicken pesto pasta. That recipe actually came from my husband and was one of our late night type go tos. And ever since then, it’s been a real customer of and, favorite. You know, a lot of people who have come in to asking for it and remember it and, and I, I love the fact that it’s a piece of my husband in the business, you know, because that was that was his, his recipe.

00:40:24:22 – 00:40:43:21
If it’s sweet, I think it would be the, milk chocolate chip cupcake for me, because when I first started out, I never ate lunch. And often it would just be. That would be my sustenance. A milk chocolate chip cupcake. So very nostalgic. Right? How should people that want to follow your journey, follow your brand or your experiences?

00:40:43:21 – 00:41:01:19
So we are on Instagram, at Plain Vanilla SG you know, catch up online to dot plain vanilla.com dot super. And last question. If you have a listener that would like to have a mentorship coffee and 1 or 2 elders learn more, are you willing to give one coffee session away from one listeners? Yeah, of course I would love to.

00:41:01:19 – 00:41:24:20
I always, you know, I always wonder if anything I shared is valuable, very valuable. But, you I guess one never knows the truth of what they already know until they start to share it. Right. Exactly. Always happy to share. And, Yeah, always happy to share. Super. So final question for the entire podcast, what’s one final thing you’d like to share with our listeners, to take away from today’s sharing?

00:41:24:23 – 00:41:50:05
Well, I guess for me it won’t be a one liner, but I think in all the years that I’ve worked so incredibly hard, the most important thing as a founder and owner is if you care for yourself, you will be able to give more. I know this is a hard lesson. I had a I had an employee who left and in his exit interview he said, you can’t give from a cup that’s half full.

00:41:50:07 – 00:42:07:21
And it left such a deep impression on me because it’s so rare, right? When you’re a founder, that people give you feedback openly and honestly. And he obviously didn’t feel comfortable telling me that to my face, but he he could see something about the way I was working and how I was maybe not giving enough time and care for myself.

00:42:07:21 – 00:42:23:12
And, I started doing that in the last two years and I feel like I’m happier for it. I make better decisions. More positive, able to lead better. So, yeah, I would say that that’s one of the biggest lessons to me that I’ve had in the last ten years. That’s super, super. I wish someone told me that as well.

00:42:23:18 – 00:42:38:24
And, hopefully by taking care of myself more and having the right state of mind and I’ll be in like, what I call peak performance, right? And able to execute better. The people better bring the business to better, results. And thank you for the sharing, Vanessa. It’s been amazing. Yeah. So much from you. Thank you for having me.